Curse

Kumu Honua · Oct 03, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

w00t, 30 damage per excruciatingly slow hit. Nothing compared to Triple Chop Warriors and Moebius Sins.

Who's comparing? My statement was "A ranger in pve is just fine." Since when does damage output in pve really matter? Crap explodes either way. If comparing was the case then Warriors are useless. Discord necros are the only way to go....or some other inane statements.

Excruciatingly slow? .7 seconds longer than the axe is excruciating? What are you some kind of robot? It takes me longer to let out gas than the difference between attacks.

Fleeting · Oct 03, 2009, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tys Angel

My main is my ranger, my first char, had since game came out. Ive invested alot into her--time,gold, titles maxed etc. But now im kind of regretting it. I feel like Rangers are sort of useless lately. It seems like everything a ranger can do, some other class can do better. cough assasins cough. It was better when you could trap more effeciently and actually farm. I do enjoy interrupting, but that only does so much for me. Now i dont see the point of being on a ranger anymore. What do rangers do that other classes cant?? What makes it fun for you?

To be frank, PvE is PvE. Anything can farm anywhere given enough time. Don't base your love/hate of a class on whether or not it can fit 16 into Shadow Arts for an elite skill that's getting nerfed anyway. There's more to the game than farming, and Rangers are extremely versatile and fun in every area of the game.

BlackSephir · Oct 03, 2009, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Since when does damage output in pve really matter?

;/ You make me sad.

Ccat · Oct 03, 2009, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Who's comparing? My statement was "A ranger in pve is just fine." Since when does damage output in pve really matter?

LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Excruciatingly slow? .7 seconds longer than the axe is excruciating?

LOL, yes.

Chthon · Oct 03, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Useless? No. But very limited in applications that they're first-rate at.

You'll never beat a necro, sin, or warrior at damage output.

And you'll never beat a warrior or paragon at damage prevention (SY!).

And you can completely forget about healing. (3 pips!)

However...

* BHA is peerless for shutting down a single dangerous caster before it gets a chance to act. That's not always something a group needs. Bu when the group does it need, a ranger supplies it best.

* Barrage works well enough if an entire team is designed around it.

* After the most recent buff, a beastmaster, a longstanding joke of a build concept, actually does frightfully high single-target damage. Single-target damage isn't really what team builds should be aiming for, but it's popular nonetheless (discord cough cough), so I guess you could consider beastmaster viable.

Tenebrae · Oct 03, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Useless? No. But very limited in applications that they're first-rate at.

LoL no , they are support and limited ? god , they are the most versatile class on GW lmao.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You'll never beat a necro, sin, or warrior at damage output.

And you'll never beat a warrior or paragon at damage prevention (SY!).

And you can completely forget about healing. (3 pips!)

Well i guess is good that someone points out the obvious.
-Never beat a necro in pve because necro is the most overpowered class on pve maybe ? ok.
-Never beat a pure damage dealing class because ranger is not a damage dealer , ofc.
-Never beat a warrior or a paragon at spamming SY because rangers are not an adrenaline class based build ...... right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

* BHA is peerless for shutting down a single dangerous caster before it gets a chance to act. That's not always something a group needs. Bu when the group does it need, a ranger supplies it best.

* Barrage works well enough if an entire team is designed around it.

* After the most recent buff, a beastmaster, a longstanding joke of a build concept, actually does frightfully high single-target damage. Single-target damage isn't really what team builds should be aiming for, but it's popular nonetheless (discord cough cough), so I guess you could consider beastmaster viable.

You forgot something , insane PvE skill spam output and btw , BHA<Techbabble and Barrage doesnt need an entire team designed around it , just a tank or someone that blocks 3+ foes in the same place. Beastmasters are good but any good prim ranger ( hi ) will tell that none of those elites are the most played .

Kumu Honua · Oct 03, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Who's comparing? My statement was "A ranger in pve is just fine." Since when does damage output in pve really matter?

LOL

So you are trying to tell me that my Ranger should be unable to do pve? Well hell. I must be doing something wrong. And I don't run optimal ANYTHING. Hell I run a signet of spirits, naga shaman, assassin summoner build. It's fun and deals plenty of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Excruciatingly slow? .7 seconds longer than the axe is excruciating?

LOL, yes.

Then run a R/W Axe build ffs. Narrow minded you are.

Oct 03, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

I think Rangers have alot of potential, assasins are just casting quite a large shadow right now, and they for some reason are yet to be nerfed. Pets being alot of power and i feel thats its for the majority untapped. I used to hide behind a rock and destroy bosses with my pet enraged lunge build. Right now im running a R/P build where my pet uses energy and i use adrenaline and it works pretty well. I guess i wish Rangers were more popular so you could find PUGs easier and more builds for rangers would be unearthed. I was just standing in a town, and a group was saying " GLF A/P A/D and A/R" Heaven forbid ya dont have 8 sins in your party. I liked it better when sins were begging for groups because they were always first to die

Chthon · Oct 04, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

most versatile class

That and $2.50 will buy them a ride on the subway. Versatility is useless on the class level. Parties need to be versatile. But you don't get that by tossing in "versatile" characters that do multiple things poorly. You do it by intelligently dividing up the tasks your party needs to be able to perform among 8 characters each suited to be the best they are at what they do.

There are only 7 first- and second-order mechanics put together in GW: damage, damage prevention, healing, disruption, rez, removal, and resource-management. Rangers excel at precisely one of these. If my party needs disruption, I'll bring a ranger. If it needs anything else, there is at least one other class that can serve that need better.

You seem to disagree with this, but then please tell me, what exactly does your ranger build do? Please, post a build and tell me what it does, besides disruption, that another class can't do better. (To belabor the obvious, I don't think you can.)

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You forgot something , insane PvE skill spam output

I'm not clear on your meaning here.

If you're saying that rangers are good at spamming PvE skills, they're not. They've only got 3 pips of regen, and expertise affects very few of the PvE skills. Almost any other class can use them better.

If you're saying that other classes spamming PvE skills obviates BHA, you're wrong, as explained below.

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and btw , BHA<Techbabble

While I like technobabble very much, and I use it a lot on my offensive casters, it can't replace BHA. 3 reasons:
1. Range. BHA's range lets you launch it preemptively against whatever you want to lock down, and daze it before it even aggros. Also, BHA's range means you're safe from immediate retaliation by the rest of the mob. Technobabble is lacking in both of those respects.
2. Duration. BHA can keep a nasty caster shut down indefinitely. While technobabble's 5 (6 with silencing prefix) sec daze is great for spanking annoying healers and eles from dime-a-dozen mobs, it doesn't hold up against anything that don't drop dead at the drop of a hat -- which is exactly when you need it most. (Even AP Technobabble spam, which is much stronger than naked technobabble, sometimes stumbles when AP doesn't go off as planned, and fails to deliver the dazed when needed.)
3. Bosses. The monsters that you most want to daze are exempted from technobabble's dazing effect.

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Barrage doesnt need an entire team designed around it

It does if it wants to compete with the DPS output from teams built around curse necros + warriors/assassins.

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any good prim ranger ( hi ) will tell that none of those elites are the most played .

First, what's a "prim ranger"? A stiffly formal and proper ranger? A primary ranger perhaps?

Second, (while I have a bad feeling I'm about to see a really bad DPS bar,) please do post your favorite elite that "prim rangers" use and the rest of the bar to go with it.

Cuilan · Oct 04, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

"A ranger in pve is just fine." Since when does damage output in pve really matter? Crap explodes either way.

You must play normal mode. In that case anything is great.

I'm all for versatilely, but your builds should do their purpose well. Spirits such as Frozen Soil can very easily added without much attribute points on a non-ranger primary.

Necromancers can do quite a bit of damage yes, but they're dependent on map and team outside of minions.

Nobody does Barrage pet in Urgoz anymore? Back when they did, I remember assassins doing more damage than rangers with Barrage.

I generally don't invite rangers unless they invite themselves in PvE. Maybe if I saw a good pet build being used my thoughts would be otherwise.

IronSheik · Oct 04, 2009, 03:10 AM // 03:10

BHA sucks, sorry, better elites.

I'll elaborate a bit.

For BHA to have a good effect you need to upkeep physical damage on it, with daze the casting time for regular monsters is only returned to normal.

And if you're upkeeping this copious amounts of pressure on it, it would've died in a few seconds like anything in PvE should, so a smaller daze would've been better, if you REALLY needed it.

BHA only gets in my team if I'm running something condition heavy with fevered/extend conditions, but then fevered would've supplied all the AoE daze I need.

And as far as rangers being versatile..sure, but is a earthshaker stance ranger really better than a warrior, or a scyther better than a warr/sin, or is the ranger better with daggers than a sin?

Sure, they can do it all, but is it worth it? Even a general barrager a sin does better, rangers are useless to me besides lols builds.

Kumu Honua · Oct 04, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

You must play normal mode. In that case anything is great.

Why would you assume that? No. I don't play in normal mode. I play in hard mode.

Quote:

I'm all for versatilely, but your builds should do their purpose well. Spirits such as Frozen Soil can very easily added without much attribute points on a non-ranger primary.

The same can be said about every class for the most part. Elementalist monks, necromancer rit healers, scythe rangers/assassins, mesmer elementalists...

Ccat · Oct 04, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

So you are trying to tell me that my Ranger should be unable to do pve? Well hell. I must be doing something wrong. And I don't run optimal ANYTHING. Hell I run a signet of spirits, naga shaman, assassin summoner build. It's fun and deals plenty of damage.

But not as much damage as it could do. Why bother if you can have something that's reems better? And I distinguish Guild Wars 'fun' by killing stuff as quickly as possible. Since you're not bothered about optimism, I guess you must find it fun killing groups of 3 every 5 minutes.

By the by, this arguement you've got going is irrelevant. Sure you might find Rangers 'fun', but the discussion is about Rangers being useful, and they are outdamaged and outclassed in almost every instance in PvE, they are not useful. I really don't care that you claim you have fun with your Ranger. Works for you, not for the meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumu Honua

Then run something that's much worse than other builds for absolutely no reason, ffs. Narrow minded I am.

amidoinitrite? Don't see why I couldn't just W/ and do the job much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Sure, they can do it all, but is it worth it? Even a general barrager a sin does better, rangers are useless to me besides lols builds.

same here. The only time I found my Ranger fun was using Marksman's Wager with Spinal Shivers, and 1s-attack skills for lulz-value and nothing more. That was a long time ago.

Tenebrae · Oct 04, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That and $2.50 will buy them a ride on the subway. Versatility is useless on the class level. Parties need to be versatile. But you don't get that by tossing in "versatile" characters that do multiple things poorly. You do it by intelligently dividing up the tasks your party needs to be able to perform among 8 characters each suited to be the best they are at what they do.

Quit your rage dude , its your opinion but they dont do "things poorly" , read what i said . They are supporters and they are good at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You seem to disagree with this, but then please tell me, what exactly does your ranger build do? Please, post a build and tell me what it does, besides disruption, that another class can't do better. (To belabor the obvious, I don't think you can.)

You dont pay me enough to teach you how to use a ranger but i will tell you what i DONT do with my ranger : Healing , Hexing and Nuking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you're saying that rangers are good at spamming PvE skills, they're not. They've only got 3 pips of regen, and expertise affects very few of the PvE skills. Almost any other class can use them better.

Oh yes they are , you lack of experience with a Ranger and like i said before , im not going to teach you .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

If you're saying that other classes spamming PvE skills obviates BHA, you're wrong, as explained below.

Explain as you want but you are DEAD wrong and i didnt talk about other classes , dont make up things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

While I like technobabble very much, and I use it a lot on my offensive casters, it can't replace BHA. 3 reasons:
1. Range. BHA's range lets you launch it preemptively against whatever you want to lock down, and daze it before it even aggros. Also, BHA's range means you're safe from immediate retaliation by the rest of the mob. Technobabble is lacking in both of those respects.
2. Duration. BHA can keep a nasty caster shut down indefinitely. While technobabble's 5 (6 with silencing prefix) sec daze is great for spanking annoying healers and eles from dime-a-dozen mobs, it doesn't hold up against anything that don't drop dead at the drop of a hat -- which is exactly when you need it most. (Even AP Technobabble spam, which is much stronger than naked technobabble, sometimes stumbles when AP doesn't go off as planned, and fails to deliver the dazed when needed.)
3. Bosses. The monsters that you most want to daze are exempted from technobabble's dazing effect.

1-False. Unless you are using it from Long bow range and in NM. Techbabble is ranged also so that 0.2 is not going to save any life nor bring any clear advantage against nothing.
2-Yes because like we all know , in pve mobs last more than 20 sec alive and you need to keep them dazed while being hit ( because dazing and let the foe cast spells in HM is useless ofc ). You dont need 20 secs of daze to kill the hell out of nothing and thats the truth.
Btw , it has 10 sec recharge so you can use it again shortly and its AOE unlike BHA.
3-Most dangerous bosses have shorter condition durations or cast so bloody insanely fast that you almost dont notice BHA. The thing is that theres almost NO BOSS in this game wich make BHA worth. Feel free to name ANY BOSS wich you CANT beat without BHA ........ u cant right ? and if you do , whats that ? maybe 3 or 4% of the game bosses ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Second, (while I have a bad feeling I'm about to see a really bad DPS bar,) please do post your favorite elite that "prim rangers" use and the rest of the bar to go with it.

If you had experience with a Ranger in HM pve you would know them. Like i said before , im not going to teach nobody to use a ranger .

FireWhale · Oct 04, 2009, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I read until I got to the part about roles/damage output. Here is my opinion on rangers:

Ranger damage < sins, mesmers, necros, monks, eles (even in hm), rits.

I still enjoy playing my ranger, but I have no delusions that I'm doing anything more than mediocre damage on her. The splinter/barrage is very akin to the HB/whirlwind attack/MoP combo. The cooldown is long and there's really nothing else to do while you wait for the recharge. That's at least my general impression of it.

edit: Oh yeah. I forgot to mention. Those two combinations also require several enemies clustered together. While they effectively eliminate such clusters, the dps of such builds is severely diminished when doing single-target dps.

Also..I would really like to see some builds. Specifically Tenebrae. I find it very hard to believe you when your entire message consists of "My ranger is good but I won't tell you why or how". Moreover, my own experiences fall in line with what your opposition is saying. I'm open-minded and I want to believe rangers can deal serious damage, but I seriously do not see how.

gremlin · Oct 04, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

So the definition by which a character class is useful is just down to damage output,Rangers in pve don't kill as fast as warriors so they suck

The entire game boils down to speed kill and speed clear is what some of you seem to be saying.

sorry but that's just crazy imo

FireWhale · Oct 04, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Well, no. I'm saying that I don't consider rangers on the same level as other profs in terms of damage output. That requires me to take on a different mindset when playing my ranger in order to have fun. When people are saying the prof is versatile and fun, I would also like to experience what they are experiencing. I definitely don't find it fun if my mindset is in damage-dealing. So that's why I ask for bars.

Ccat · Oct 04, 2009, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

So the definition by which a character class is useful is just down to damage output,Rangers in pve don't kill as fast as warriors so they suck

The entire game boils down to speed kill and speed clear is what some of you seem to be saying.

sorry but that's just crazy imo

Crazy how. To survive, you must deal big numbers or nothing dies, unless you're fighting single unit teams, ie Temple Guardians/ Vermin. By the logic killing stuff quickly doesn't matter, the whole team should just be Monks and staff everything to death. THAT is crazy.

Aldric · Oct 04, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Crazy how. To survive, you must deal big numbers or nothing dies, unless you're fighting single unit teams, ie Temple Guardians/ Vermin. By the logic killing stuff quickly doesn't matter, the whole team should just be Monks and staff everything to death. THAT is crazy.

Your whole argument is pretty common and also pretty bad. Killing stuff quickly does matter, killing stuff the absolute quickest possible way doesn't.

Gremlin was right , there is huge ground between the highest and lowest possible DPS and having the attitude that anything less than the best sucks is just plain stupid.

99% of the time a R/W, R/P or R/D will have a lower DPS than a W/x, P/x or D/x but in game it makes virtually no difference at all. A warrior may kill a group in 60 secs and a R/W takes 65. Does it make the Ranger shit? no it makes it a bit less efficient and not as good as the warrior but still fine enough.

Chthon · Oct 04, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

BHA sucks, sorry, better elites.

I'll elaborate a bit.

For BHA to have a good effect you need to upkeep physical damage on it, with daze the casting time for regular monsters is only returned to normal.

And if you're upkeeping this copious amounts of pressure on it, it would've died in a few seconds like anything in PvE should, so a smaller daze would've been better, if you REALLY needed it.

I think you are confusing situations where you don't really need daze at all (of which there are plenty) with situations where dazed is needed but BHA isn't your best source of dazed (which is almost never the case). If you're hunting a big nasty like Rotscale, Droajam, Seacrash, Joffs the Mitigator, Borrguus Blisterbark, etc. in HM, then BHA is the skill to have. If you're not, you don't really need dazed (or a ranger in your party) in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Quit your rage dude

The word "rage" might describe one of us, but I don't think it's me....

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They are supporters and they are good at it.

Same question then: What exactly does a "supporter" do?

"Supporter" is an empty word. To say "rangers are good because they are supporters and good at it" has no more meaning or logical force than to say "rangers are good because they are ickiickiickiickipatangaipboings and they're good at it." I understand "damage dealer" (direct damage dealer or "buff bitch"); I understand "healer"; I understand "damage preventer" (aka "prot," "imba-something," or "debuffer"); I understand "disruptor" (aka "interrupter," knock-locker," or "shut-down-hexer"); I understand "condition/hex remover"; I understand "rezzer"; and I understand "resource helper" (aka "battery" or "adrenaline bitch"). But "supporter" I do not understand. Please explain it in terms of the above. Or explain how it is none of those things, yet still worth doing.

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You dont pay me enough to teach you how to use a ranger...

...you lack of experience with a Ranger and like i said before , im not going to teach you...

If you had experience with a Ranger in HM pve you would know them. Like i said before , im not going to teach nobody to use a ranger...

If you had a solid build, you would have posted it instead of launching into ad noobinem attacks on me personally. "I have a great build but I refuse to show it to anyone" fools nobody. I say you don't have a great non-disruption-based ranger build, because none exists. Posting a great non-disruption-based ranger build would prove me wrong. Name-calling me a "noob" a thousand times will not prove anything, and only highlights the weakness of your evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireWhale

I still enjoy playing my ranger, but I have no delusions that I'm doing anything more than mediocre damage on her.

Precisely. Rangers can be fun. (I greatly enjoy running a beastmaster.) But fun is different from good. Being fun to play does not make rangers a good class. And being a second-rate class does not make rangers un-fun to play.